Noise & burning at cold start

[Witcher]

Thought I'd post here since I'm not likely to get a response on FF

Just as a preface, my car is a GD3 A/T with the KWSC.

Starting only recently (less than 2 weeks now?), my car's been making very loud metallic ticking/clicking noises from a cold start, much louder than the usual ones that Fits have normally at idle. It is kind of noticeable in P, very loud in R, and somewhere in between in D. This louder 2ndary clicking noise goes away once the car is warmed up - but it is something I didn't used to have a couple weeks back. The car got a valve adjustment 6000 miles ago.

Also from a cold start, there's a strong burning smell coming from the pulley belt / alternator. I'm quite certain it's coming from there. The smell also goes away for the most part once the car is warmed up.

Since the sound & burning smell only occur at cold start and go away once the car is warm - and the burning smell starts right away as soon as the car is started - I'm thinking it might be a pulley that isn't turning properly when cold? I've never checked/changed the serpentine belt or checked pulleys on my car before - do I need to take the bumper/fender off to access it without destroying my hand in the cramped space?

As a side note - I changed my front air/fuel ratio sensor (O2) recently and my MPG went up to 27 from an average of 22-23. The very next tank of gas it went back down to 23 (tried resetting ECU, did not change this) and this is around when the noise/burning smell started. Could the sudden drop in increased MPG that only lasted 1 tank of gas & the burning smell / noises from the belt/alternator be related, or just unfortunate coincidence?

Not sure what's going on but maybe someone has had the same symptoms/experience before. Sorry for the long post.

[claymore]

Belt tensioner most likely check this thread http://www.hondafitforums.com/showthread.php?t=776

[manxman]

I agree with claymore's advice. Your story sound like a repeat of Tinyvan's problems. I am sorry to hear about a second case like this from one of our small group. This seems to indicate that there is a hidden problem with the belt tensioner from KraftWerks.

According to Tinyvan, KW won't just send you a replacement. They want you to send your bad one to them for analysis. While they are doing that, you can just drive your Bentley or your Rolls.

Or, if you need the Fit, you have to buy a replacement tensioner. We are hoping that Tinyvan gets warranty coverage from KWSC after they look at the destroyed tensioner, and that the warranty is in the form of a refund of the cost of the replacement tensioner.

Good luck, and please keep us informed of how you are treated by KW.

[Witcher]

Could the tensioner malfunctioning cause the kind of noise I'm describing? It's a metallic clacking sound that's much louder than the usual chatter of the L15. Is there a way to test and see if the tensioner is working properly? I noticed today morning that the burning smell starts immediately when car is started, but goes away very fast once the car warms up.

I'll be taking the car to my mechanic as soon as I can get a hold of him. Hopefully it's nothing serious.

[manxman]

The tensioner is just a spring loaded lever with a roller on one end that puts pressure on the drive belt to keep it snug in the pulleys for the alternator and water pump. Your noises could be coming from failed ball bearings inside the tensioner roller. Eventually that roller will freeze up, stop rolling, and then the drive belt will break.

I suggest that you PM Tinyvan (MNFit on fitfreak). He had noise symptoms, and a CEL code, as I recall, some time before his drive belt came completely off the engine.

I am betting that your next event will be your drive belt breaking or falling off, at which point your alternator and water pump will both stop working immediately. For your sake, I hope that you are within sight of your house, the way that Tinyvan was.

[Witcher]

Hopefully my mechanic will be able to pinpoint the cause and get whatever the problem is fixed before my car dies on the street in the middle of nowhere. So far no CEL, just noise & smell from cold start. I'll update once my mechanic takes a look and we'll see if the tensioner really is the problem or not. Thanks for the help so far.

[manxman]

Hopefully my mechanic will be able to pinpoint the cause and get whatever the problem is fixed before my car dies on the street in the middle of nowhere. So far no CEL, just noise & smell from cold start. I'll update once my mechanic takes a look and we'll see if the tensioner really is the problem or not. Thanks for the help so far.
Again, good luck. Your mechanic is not going to have a replacement KWSC belt tensioner in stock. That is the only part under the hood that would cause the burning rubber smell. If your Fit is your only car, you'd best carry some survival supplies if you live in the snow belt, and carry a AAA or similar road service/towing card. You will need a tow if you have to keep driving the Fit, and then another way to get to work or home. I wish you the best.

[claymore]

Yep the tensioner starts out noisy and not moving very well and that causes it make the belt slip hence the smell from the belt sliding over the non-moving tensioner. The rumble or bearing noise starts out when cold because as the tensioner heats up from the belt sliding over it things expand allowing it just enough clearance to start to move and the rumble goes away.

I wouldn't plan any long distance trips until the tensioner is checked.

[VillageIdiot]

I woke up this morning thinking about this before I even got out of bed and a thought as to the cause came to mind.... The bearing is a sealed type and the pulley is made of plastic resin and unlike a metal pulley isn't able to dissipate heat... One of the belt guides is nothing more than 2 sealed bearings on a bolt and yet there has been no problems from it that I have read of.... The adjustment pulley is mounted close to the cylinder head as well and subjected to more heat.... I am counting on my hood louvers to lower the temperature enough that I don't have the same problem and hope that KW is able to address this problem soon.

[manxman]

I woke up this morning thinking about this before I even got out of bed and a thought as to the cause came to mind.... The bearing is a sealed type and the pulley is made of plastic resin and unlike a metal pulley isn't able to dissipate heat... One of the belt guides is nothing more than 2 sealed bearings on a bolt and yet there has been no problems from it that I have read of.... The adjustment pulley is mounted close to the cylinder head as well and subjected to more heat.... I am counting on my hood louvers to lower the temperature enough that I don't have the same problem and hope that KW is able to address this problem soon.
I was waiting for you to join in- and I'm thinking that your ventilation may be helping you to avoid these problems. AFAIK, we have 3 members with the KWSC equipment, and two of them are having identical problems. That seems to be a huge warning about a weakness in the design of the KraftWerks tensioner. I would suggest to the Jacksons that they stop insisting that the non-functional tensioners be sent to them for analysis before they will consider this a warranty issue.

Unless this part is functional, the car can't run. No one is going to whine about a non-existent problem with the part. After paying thousands for the S/C kit, KraftWerks should supply a new tensioner upon request, and only bill the customer's credit card for the price of the replacement tensioner if the customer either does not send the broken one in, or if KW can prove that the tensioner broke because of misuse/abuse.

With your description, Dee, and the obvious problems being experienced right now by Tinyvan and Witcher (MNfit and Koi), my opinion as an engineer is that the design of this crucial part is faulty.

My suggestion to anyone who is considering buying such a drastic modification to your car is: if you do not have the ability to install this system yourself, don't buy it. Because when something goes wrong, you won't have the ability to diagnose or fix problems that are bound to come up.

[Witcher]

Thanks for the insight into the problem guys. However, let's not jump the gun without evidence that this is a problem with all the kits. As far as I know MNFit was the only person so far that the tensioner took a dump on.

I stopped by my mechanic today (he used to work closely with the Jacksons so he knows his stuff) and he said everything looks fine. Belt looks okay for now (probably needs to be changed in 5-10k miles) and the tensioner is working properly. We ended up just moving the alternator forward a bit more (it was already tweaked forward to stop the belt from squealing a while back) - I'll just have to wait and see if the noise & burning smell either go away, remain harmless, or cause failure in the future. Only time will tell for now and all I can do is trust what my mechanic says regarding my issues.

The only 'problem' that he noticed was that the idler pulley next to the tensioner was covered in a black grease/oil. The bearing itself seems to be clean but the bolt and washer holding it are covered with what looks like burnt oil or grease. Does anyone w/ the kit have this?

In any case, thanks for your help guys. Regardless of whether or not this is a real problem or something not to worry about, you guys were definitely helpful.

[VillageIdiot]

I just went out and took a quick look at mine and found that the pulley is not close to the head and the tensioner and is below the alternator which is used for adjustment.... It is unusual that it is possible to adjust a serpentine belt at all but there isn't much room for the spring loaded pulley to move when installing the belt so the additional adjustment at the alternator is necessary... The installation manual instructs to adjust the alternator securing bolt to the 1/2 way point in the slotted bracket and mine is adjusted at 3/4.... If it was warmer and I wasn't aching I would crawl under and check it all out for oil accumulation and possible problems, snipers, boogey men and other assorted threats.... The spring loaded pulley appears to be the same size as that of the alternator pulley which is large for an alternator I guess because of the high revs of the little engine.

[manxman]

Dear Easter Bunny,

Please bring me a spare KWSC Belt Tensioner, and hide it someplace easy to find.

K. Thnx. Bye.

[manxman]

Don't guess. It's your car, and this situation will come up again with normal belt wear. Why not call Oscar and ask him? Part of owning, and especially of modifying a car, is being able and ready to make adjustments. The only way that a car stays exactly the same is if it is never driven.

And now it is clear why KW is so careful not to say "sorry your belt tensioner broke- here's a new one". According to your quote from Oscar, yours was not adjusted properly. Probably, Tinyvan's wasn't either. While you are talking with Oscar Jackon, if you ask him if improper adjustment of the tensioner will cause premature wear, I'll bet that he will say "Yes".

I'm not trying to beat you up. Your last post just proves my point, and warning, about not making major changes to your car unless you can install it yourself. When things change, need adjustment, or just break, you won't be able to diagnose what's going on, or what to do about it.

[Witcher]

EDIT: I hate to keep editing my post and making it longer, but I need to clarify that when I asked about the black gunk on the idle pulley, what I meant to say was black gunk on the HIGH SPEED BELT CONTROL BEARINGS. Oscar Jackson Jr probably thought I was talking about gunk on the tensioner/pulley itself. I'll update this once I get a new answer back from OJR regarding black gunk on the BEARINGS. Sorry for the confusion people.

Oh believe me, I know what you mean by your 'warning'. Looking back I didn't think it through because the kit was on a big sale. In any case I completely agree with you - I highly regret that I'm not technically sufficient with the car to deal with any issues that come up with the supercharger. It's an expensive lesson learned for any future cars & major mods. On the flip side, I've learned a ton about my car and cars in general through this experience, not to mention I am absolutely addicted to boost lol. Now that I think about it and pore over the installation manual, I could have done the installation except for bending the brake lines which is something I don't trust myself to do correctly. Amazing how much you can learn about a car in less than a year with the help of people on forums.

By the way, just to clarify - I said 'guess' because I completely forgot the significance of there being the automatic tensioner AND alternator bracket. The fact that there's an automatic tensioner made me completely forget that the alternator being moved back forth can increase or decrease tension in the belt - I was thinking of it only in terms of how 'tight or loose' the belt is, not tension. I tend to get simple things like that mixed up sometimes.

One last thing - I'm going to be changing the belt out real soon, and when I'm doing that I'll check belt tension and make sure all the pulleys are spinning properly etc. My problem is, if the belt is too tight due to the alternator being too forward towards the radiator, how can I move it back towards the engine? It's hard enough getting that thing to budge using a pry tool with the engine providing support, but if I need to move it back there's nothing to support the pry tool except radiator hoses and a plastic bumper. To be clear, there is no adjustment screw, that's been replaced with a bracket with a single bolt that locks the alternator in place when tightened. Any ideas? VillageIdiot, I can use your help here :)

[manxman]

Witcher, you have my respect. You are one of the very few people whose posts show that you are a forum member to learn, not to pretend to have knowledge that you don't, and to show off a totally empty head. You are part of a very small group, and I know most of the rest of them.

I was going to suggest that while you are paying a mechanic to adjust or replace the source of your current problem, you pay him a little more to actually show you how to do it the next time yourself, and write a list of the tools that you should own to handle the maintenance tasks of the supercharger parts. But I am not pretending to be your "mentor". I think that you will make the right judgments on your own.

I am so used to the overabundance of dimwits on another forum that I tend to get a little heavy handed in my advice on occasion. And through your information, I am happy to learn that the belt tensioner is most likely not a bad design and a disaster just waiting to happen. Obviously, proper initial installation and periodic maintenance is key to keeping you safely on the road. But I also have the impression that the drive belt and the KWSC tensioner probably should not be expected to last as long as the stock components on an un-boosted Fit.

I hope that you get away without any failures until the proper adjustment is completed, and also hope that the maladjustment did not cause any permanent damage to the tensioner. Here's one last suggestion- from the noise and burning smell, you have lost some belt material to early wear. In your place, I would put a new belt on during the labor on the tensioner. But since I am not sitting here looking at your drive belt, maybe it is actually fine and I am full of crap. It's unlikely though.

[Witcher]

Thanks for the compliments. I end up doing and saying stupid things alot of times but I try to learn from people who know better :p

But I also have the impression that the drive belt and the KWSC tensioner probably should not be expected to last as long as the stock components on an un-boosted Fit.

I hope that you get away without any failures until the proper adjustment is completed, and also hope that the maladjustment did not cause any permanent damage to the tensioner. Here's one last suggestion- from the noise and burning smell, you have lost some belt material to early wear. In your place, I would put a new belt on during the labor on the tensioner. But since I am not sitting here looking at your drive belt, maybe it is actually fine and I am full of crap. It's unlikely though.

I'll probably be switching out the belt every 15-20k miles or so from here on just to be safe. I've been looking around regarding automatic tensioners in general and so far I've seen lots of different cars get similar problems with the bearings in the tensioner's pulley drying out - is greasing the bearings of an automatic tensioner's pulley considered normal maintenance on cars that come w/ it stock?

Once I get a floor jack that lifts the car higher than my current pathetic POS I'll be checking for proper belt tension - I'm actually now wondering if maybe the alternator is too forward causing the belt to be too tight and thus burn at initial startup before the belt warms up. Does that sound plausible at the very least?

Edit: the more I look around the less it seems that tightening would cause what I was wondering about.

[manxman]

Last first- usually a belt squeal on start-up indicates that it is too loose. Out of 20 or so vehicles, I've only owned two with serpentine belts. The one tensioner that I replaced had sealed bearings, and 60,000 miles on it. The truck that I sold when I bought my Fit also had sealed bearings in the tensioner roller, and it was fine and silent at 50K also.

I don't know for sure, but I doubt that there are very many, if any, automatic tensioners that are greaseable. Any grease that leaked out would ruin the belt in seconds, and most tensioners are so difficult to reach, you couldn't get a grease gun to it without splattering grease everywhere.

I have not made a study of belt tensioners, so I am speaking from engineering logic. Greaseable tensioners would cause more problems than they solved. Better to replace a sealed unit or two every 100k. The sheer strain created by your Rotrex compressor is going to cause much more maintenance work than you would see in a stock Fit.

[VillageIdiot]

I am going to try and be careful not to speculate about problems that I haven't personally experienced..... Like Manxman, I have only had a couple of cars with serpentine belts and they perform well passed 100k miles without needing replacement... The old 95 GMC truck that just runs too good to get rid of is doing fine with the original belt tensioner while the one on my 97 was broken by me somehow when I was guilty of wrenching while blind.... Have good lighting, repair manuals, tools and if there is liquor on hand, try to take it easy until you have completed the job or you will screw up.....Trust me about this and save yourself some trouble. By the way belt tensioners on GMCs are very reasonably priced.... Thinking back on what all has been posted starting with tinyvan's first post until O.J. Jr's, and looking at the belt layout in the installation manual It is apparent to me now if the belt isn't tight enough it is going to rub on its back side against the spring housing for the tensioner.... Tinyvan's mechanic nailed it from the start and I am the Village Idiot.... I don't have a clue as to how the belt tensioner broke but if the Kevlar belt broke first that could have been the culprit and more than likely could have been avoided by keeping tension on the belt.... Kraft Werks supplies a special wrench with the kit for belt changes and advises keeping a belt on hand.... The installation manual has great pictures and verbal instructions that even an idiot that has completed the installation on his car could follow.... The tensioner actually limits the amount of tension that can be applied and using up all of the adjustment moves the belt away from the surface where rubbing occurs.... Sitting down and restudying the manual, remembering how long that the kit was in development and testing and how it all went into the very small space with the hardest part being the tweaking of brake lines for clearance and the only servicing needed since, being the one belt adjustment, I have no complaints....The car performs like it came from the factory until you are on the boost and then it is no longer the boring little econobox that has you trapped behind a slow moving truck on a two lane highway because you are lacking the power to pass it because of hills, curves, or frequent oncoming traffic.... I have friends that spend more in a month on beer, cigarettes, guns and lottery tickets than what I paid for the kit and they are the ones that seem to have the most trouble with the money I spent on the thing so I feel like it was money well spent.

[claymore]

Look around there is more than one bolt holding the alternator in position if you loosen them you should be able to move it just with your hands. Then tighten them just enough to hold it in position using the prybar. Then tighten them all again once it's where you want.

[VillageIdiot]

Claymore is right. There is a pivot bolt 180 degrees opposite the adjustment bolt directly under the alternator on top of the water pump. It needs to be loosened just enough to allow movement but tight enough to provide some resistance and left that way. Step 46 of the installation manual just refers to the upper bolt being loosened for making adjustments.

[Witcher]

Thanks Claymore & VillageIdiot. I completely forgot about the pivot bolt, I'll take a look around when I'm working on the car later.

[claymore]

The slider bolt is on the top the other bolt is on the bottom of the case.

[claymore]

If you look in this photo you can see the other bolt coming from the back side.

36 click to make bigger

The one you missed is the one on the right with the arrow pointing to it.

[Witcher]

What a pain in the ass to get to that bolt - is there an easy way that I'm not thinking of?

I should have knocked on wood, I noticed some rpm drops at idle tonight. It seems to only happen when the car is not fully warmed up (cold start up to around 170 degrees F) where my rpms stay around 850 then suddenly drop to 700-750 for a split second and jump back up to 850. This is while idling in Drive. I saw the rpm drop smaller increments (30-40 rpm drops) in Neutral but didn't see anything happen idling in Park. It could be that the car warmed up enough by the time I tried Park/Neutral but there was definitely a consistent drop of 100-150 rpm's idling in Drive while the car was cold. The drop happened every 5-10 seconds, and stopped happening once the car's water temp was at 175-180 degrees F & higher.

I have a slightly used oem coil pack coming in the mail (picked it up for $25) so I'll see if replacing my discolored/burnt one gets rid of this. Seeing as how my #3 coil pack is only recently visibly 'irregular' and now there is a consistent rpm drop of 100-150 from a cold start, most likely the problem is the coil pack am I correct?

Coincidentally, this tank of gas that I found out about the burnt coil pack is one of the best I've had so far - I'm looking at most likely around 220-240 miles for the tank which is 25-27 mpg; I've only had 1 tank after getting the KWSC that was 27 mpg, and that was immediately after replacing my O2 sensor & driving with minimal boost. The current tank I've been driving the car hard, boosting everywhere - the kind of driving that has always gotten me 22-23 mpg consistently. I'm not sure what has suddenly changed this tank; all indications point to my #3 coil pack not working properly yet I'm getting the best MPG I've ever gotten with the car after putting the supercharger on & driving with a very heavy foot. So weird.

[claymore]

Good mileage because only 3 cylinders are working ;)

Anybody with this idle problem getting a MIL showing ELD. This sounds like the type of situation the ELD should detect and speed up the idle.

[manxman]

I hate to be the bearer of more bad news, but------- a failing coil will not cause a drop in rpm. It will cause an intermittent miss-fire. That is very easy to diagnose- the engine is running on only 3 cylinders and the whole car will run roughly. If the coil quits working entirely, the whole car will shake and shudder as if it is about to die. If I knew about all of the S/C system connections to the L15 engine, I might be able to guess the cause of the minor drops in RPM, but I am not familiar with all of the system connections.

You will find, eventually, that the brief and minor RPM drops are not due to a bad coil, and that by installing your new (used) coil will either make no difference, or if it is being sold because it is failing, it will cause a definite miss in your engine. Good luck!

[Witcher]

Well it was only $25 shipped and my current coil in questionable condition, so it's a cheap shot at seeing if it'll make any difference whatsoever.

If you were considering the issue on a stock NA car, do you know of any common problems that can cause the car's rpm to drop in this fashion? There are no misfires, hesitation or loss of power while driving. No MIL's either.

I have to wonder if this has been happening since I got the car new - the rpm drop doesn't register on the Fit's gauge, I only see it on my scangauge and feel a slight hesitation when it occurs through my foot resting on the pedal. It's not enough that the car will shake or shudder. I only noticed it tonight since I was sitting around looking at the scangauge in my garage. I could easily pass it off as being part of the engine warming up if I didn't watch the numbers drop. Considering the small timeframe that it occurs in, it could have been going on for a while now. Something to think about it seems.

[VillageIdiot]

My car does the same as yours and I think it always has.... I just asked my wife if she has noticed if her car did this, she immediately said yes, and her Forester only has 4200 miles on it..... My guess is that the colder weather places more demand on the battery and the alternator is kicking in..... I have noticed that when cold the power steering causes the same thing to happen when I turn the steering wheel while coasting downhill in 1st gear.

[Witcher]

Good to know it's not just my car then. Now to see if my sudden bump in mpg continues through the next tank...

[manxman]

Good mileage because only 3 cylinders are working ;)

Anybody with this idle problem getting a MIL showing ELD. This sounds like the type of situation the ELD should detect and speed up the idle.
Nope. I disagree. A miss-fire would still consume gas and just push unburned fuel into the cat. to be burned there instead of creating power in the cylinder.

[dave brown]

Hi guys,

I'm having similar symptoms on my '07 Fit: squealing noise and burning smell at start up. Guess i need to check my belt tensioner. The noises only started recently: this morning was 15deg F. BTW, my Fit is completely stock.

edit: I should note, the squealing only happens while the starter motor is engaged.

[claymore]

Dave, what type of transmission does your car have?

[dave brown]

Dave, what type of transmission does your car have?

It's a 5sp

[claymore]

Try starting it in neutral and see if that makes a different in the noise. Or if you normally start in neutral then try it in gear with the clutch depressed whichever is the opposite of your normal routine.

[dave brown]

That makes sense. I'll give that a try. I usually throw it in neutral before I crank the engine.

I checked the belt tension this morning and things seemed okay.

[claymore]

What is the mileage on the car?

[dave brown]

57,000

[claymore]

Well with that many miles sorry to say it's probably the belt slipping. you may be able to adjust the squeal out for now until it gets warmer or go to a parts store and buy a spray can of "belt dressing" that may help until spring also.

You could try adjusting the tension again first it's simple to do but look out for trying to make it "gorilla tight" that will just wear out your water pump bearings.

Somebody said they have a belt tension device so here is the specs for that method.

Belt Tension Gauge Method
Inspection
1. Attach the belt tension gauge to the belt and measure the tension. Follow the gauge manufacturer's instructions. If the belt is worn or damaged, replace it.

Tension: Used Belt: 440-590 N (45-60 kgf, 99-130 lbf)
New Belt: 981-1,130 N (100-115 kgf, 220-254 lbf)

If somebody doesn't have a gauge the old fashioned deflection method still works just fine.

1. Apply a force of 98 N (10 kgf, 22 lbf), and measure the deflection at the mid point (A) between the A/C compressor (alternator for without A/C compressor) and crankshaft pulley. If the belt is worn or damaged, replace it.

Deflection: With A/C compressor:
Used Belt: 5.5-8.5 mm (0.22-0.33 in.)
New Belt: 3.5-5.0 mm (0.14-0.20 in.)

If that doesn't work replacing the ONE AND ONLY drive belt is simple.

121 click to enlarge

Just remember BEFORE REMOVING THE OLD BELT LOOK CAREFULLY AND SEE HOW THE BELT GOES AROUND THE PULLEYS AND IN WHICH DIRECTION. That is so you don't get confused while running the new belt around the pulleys.

[dave brown]

Thanks Claymore. No sorry needed. I was hoping it might be the belt. That's better than any other nightmare I was having. :) That belt has to be easier to change than the timing belt on our '01 Odyssey.

[claymore]

For sure much easier than any timing belt. Looked it up online and it looks to be about $30.00 or around there named a "serpentine belt".