Motor noise, valves?, dealer checking.

[cdninsw]

Hi all.

'09 Fit Sport Auto. Bought new about 2 months ago. We have over 9200 miles on it. The engine is making a very clear ting-ting-ting sound under light load. Disappears if just holding a constant speed. This is NOT ping-ping from low-octane gas. This sounds like a valve or valve related thing.

Honda service dept. hears it but is stumped. Wants us to leave it for a few days so they can tear into the engine.

100% stock, we haven't even lifted the hood in the 2 months we've had it. Wondering if anyone else has had the same issue.

thanks.
Roger
www.myspace.com/jenniferrocksthemic

[manxman]

Hi all.

'09 Fit Sport Auto. Bought new about 2 months ago. We have over 9200 miles on it. The engine is making a very clear ting-ting-ting sound under light load. Disappears if just holding a constant speed. This is NOT ping-ping from low-octane gas. This sounds like a valve or valve related thing.

Honda service dept. hears it but is stumped. Wants us to leave it for a few days so they can tear into the engine.

100% stock, we haven't even lifted the hood in the 2 months we've had it. Wondering if anyone else has had the same issue.

thanks.
Roger
www.myspace.com/jenniferrocksthemic
Sorry Roger,

Wish that I could help. My '09 Sport Auto is 13 months old, with only 5K on it, and I have not heard anything that sounds like your description. If your dealer's techs hear the noise and can't identify it, your best solution would be to let them look deeper. Loose valves is a possibility, but it is a fairly remote one, with less than 10K on the engine.

What an irritating way to start the holiday season! I wish you luck, and please post here when you get (if you get) some results. The rest of us GE owners would like to be forewarned about any and all possible future problems that we might expect to see.

Have a Merry Christmas if you can!

[cdninsw]

Hey manXman.

No biggie... yet. Dealer says the car is totally drivable. The car goes in for an engine tear down on Dec 29. Dealer is giving us a loaner for 3 days.

Trying to decide if we want a mod or two since they'll already have the motor apart on their dime. ;) Any suggestions?

[manxman]

I assume that you are kidding. I think that the very best that you can hope (pray) for is that they have the skills in their shop to put the engine back together and, 1. not have any spare parts left over, 2. they find the problem, the noise goes away, and the engine runs perfectly for 250,000 miles.

I hope that your New Year begins with zero car problems!

[cdninsw]

just a quick update incase anyone else runs into this...

So the dealer and Honda Engineering are working on this. They've had it a week (of course this is the week between Xmas and New Years).

So far they tore off the top and found exhaust valve #4 and exhaust valve # 5 were loose. They adjusted the valves, reassempled and got 15 minutes of noise free operation. Then the sound came back.

So this week (Jan 4th) they are tearing down the motor to look deeper inside. Honda engineer says no other similar reports and they don't know. This time around looking at valves, pistons, piston rods, etc. Dealer said they may end up replacing motor.

I'd be tempted to tell them to stick a bigger motor in there but the Fit motor is "special". More horses but much skinnier (to fit in a smaller space) than the previous model and, according to the dealer, a serious pain in the a$$ to get into the internals.

[manxman]

Wow! I'm really sorry to hear that you still don't have your Fit back in perfect condition. The statements that you are quoting from the dealership techs. sound like they are telling you the truth. If I were going to get inside the engine to look at piston skirts and connecting rods, I would drop the engine out of the car and work on it on a test stand. If the rods are part of the noise problem, there may also be damage to the rod bearings and rod journals on the crankshaft. All of that sounds really weird on such a new Honda engine, but your whole story sounds weird. This kind of problem is not one that you hear about from Fit owners. Once you do get it back, you can feel comfortable that it won't happen again.

[cdninsw]

Yeah, weird is right. Between family members we've probably had 12 to 15 Hondas, new & used. Never any serious motor issues.

Anyway, time for daily update...
- Dealer says Honda wanted to know if any metal shavings in the bottom pan.
- They pulled the bottom off, no metal.
- Next step, check the rod bearings (as called by manxman :) )
- depending on what shows up with the rod bearings, a Honda Engineer may come out and look since this is the first case they know of.

stay tuned...

[manxman]

Congratulations!!! Yoou are a STAR! The first Fit owner to mystify Honda with one of their own cars. You will most likely get a brand new engine out of this, but that probably isn't much consolation considering your inconvenience. I wish that this had not happened to one of our forum members, but I really appreciate your careful reporting of all of the facts, here. We all wish you the best of luck, and a totally satisfactory outcome. Please keep us advised of all future developments.

Again, I wish you the best outcome. Thanks for your detailed story.

[cdninsw]

Thank you... thank you... Yes, I've been told I have star quality many times... but then the alarm clock goes off... :)

Ok, got a call from the dealer just as they were closing. Paraphrased, goes like this:

It appears the # 3 exhaust valve was not tightened correctly during assembly. Over the first 8000+ miles it rattled around and wore unevenly, gradually getting worse & worse. When they adjusted the valves and started it up, the wear was enough that it wouldn't "hold" the adjustment and came loose again.

The dealer is replacing the cylinder head & valve train. (If I remember correctly, that's what's being replaced.)

Parts are ordered but may up to a week to arrive.

They feel pretty sure that'll fix it.

[cdninsw]

New update:

Dealer called and said while taking the engine apart they found a broken spring on the #3 exhaust valve. Honda Techline said because it's fairly new (less than 3 months) replace top end rather than trying to "repair" anything.

Dealer invited me to drop by and have a look while everything is apart. Gonna take him up on that over lunch today. :)

[manxman]

Thank you... thank you... Yes, I've been told I have star quality many times... but then the alarm clock goes off... :)

Ok, got a call from the dealer just as they were closing. Paraphrased, goes like this:

It appears the # 3 exhaust valve was not tightened correctly during assembly. Over the first 8000+ miles it rattled around and wore unevenly, gradually getting worse & worse. When they adjusted the valves and started it up, the wear was enough that it wouldn't "hold" the adjustment and came loose again.

The dealer is replacing the cylinder head & valve train. (If I remember correctly, that's what's being replaced.)

Parts are ordered but may up to a week to arrive.

They feel pretty sure that'll fix it.
Well, I'm happy for your sake that, so far, the bottom end of the engine has not been identified as being part of the problem. With a new cylinder head and all related parts, you will have an engine that runs exactly the way it was supposed to when the car was sold to you, and, you will have an added 100,000 miles of extra life on that engine. If the engine is well-maintained, the valve train is usually the first engine system to show signs of failure. I have seen Honda blocks with 350,000 miles, with crankshafts and bearings in perfect condition, and cylinder walls where the original factory hone marks were still visible.

Your whole experience is the exact opposite of what makes Honda famous for quality, and it just goes to show that mistakes occasionally happen, and that nothing is perfect. You are really lucky that you brought the original problem to the dealer service dept. when you did. If you had just put up with the noise for months, enough metal would have worn off the loose valve and related valve train parts to cause some serious damage elsewhere in the engine.

It's strange how you can be both unlucky, and lucky, all in the same event. You bought one of the few Fits with an engine that was not assembled correctly. But you brought it in for warranty diagnosis of the problem before the engine could be ruined by continued wear and contamination from the original problem. I sincerely hope that the rest of your new year goes buy with absolutely no other problems!

[cdninsw]

The latest, newest update :)

Ok, just got back from the service dude showing me the motor in pieces. Always interesting.

While I was there the service guy told me that, not only was the spring broken on #3 exhaust (ticking noise was piston hitting valve), but the i-Vtec was dead as well... zero pressure... WTF.

They've replaced the i-Vtec solenoid. Waiting for the engine top (cylinder heads, valve train) to arrive. Expect to be finished by early next week

Very glad they found all this, AND that it's covered. But criminy, we bought the car in Oct 2009 with 10 miles on it. Took it in mid Dec. 2009 because of the ticking noise with about 8000 miles. The i-Vtec thing I never would have known to complain about.

[EXWRX]

I guess that also answers for sure whether or not the Fit motor is interference or not. :p Glad that it's getting fixed and you will finally be able to experience Vtec!!!:cool:

[claymore]

Good to hear that in your case Honda is taking care of you. Highly unusual that a valve spring would fail bad enough to drop the valve onto the piston.

[cdninsw]

OK, day 16 in the shop, talking to service dept. today. Here is the latest...

Summary - 3 months old, so far:
1) broken spring on valve
2) dead Vtec

Dealer got the parts, replaced, tested, all looks good. They heard a chirp, chirp sound. After tearing apart the windshield and exhaust system, Service Dept discovered a broken engine mount. It'll take another day for part to arrive, expected delivery is tomorrow.

Service says no connection between all three issues.

I love Honda, but I'm ready to take this one back.

[manxman]

Wow! Iirc, your real name is Roger? Man! what a mess. In your place, I would have some serious doubts about Honda's reputation for reliability. This won't be any comfort at all to YOU, but it is your own bad luck that improves the odds for the rest of us as far as the unlikelihood of such a collection of manufacturing mistakes happening to us.

I used to be involved in the aircraft industry, and used to fly multiple times per week. After every newsworthy air crash, I was much more comfortable while getting on my next flight, because of the big boost in the odds that my flight would be without incident.

If you go on to a different car brand from this experience, I wouldn't criticize you, but if you can get another new Fit out of this horror story, it will almost certainly be a better car than the present one. Good luck! Honda USA should really be making a big effort to keep you happy (and off the car forums).

[cdninsw]

Just had another call from the service guy. Turns out the engine mount isn't broken, it was installed backwards.

Engine mounts are directional with an arrow stamped on them. On ours (right side mount) the arrow was pointing the wrong way (it was stamped correctly but installed backwards).

Not exactly inspiring. I think it was better when I believed it had broke. Sounds like they assembled the motor Friday afternoon, then installed on Monday morning. :rolleyes:

[manxman]

Just had another call from the service guy. Turns out the engine mount isn't broken, it was installed backwards.

Engine mounts are directional with an arrow stamped on them. On ours (right side mount) the arrow was pointing the wrong way.

Not exactly inspiring. I think it was better when I believed it had broke. Sounds like they assembled the motor Friday afternoon, then installed on Monday morning. :rolleyes:
I keep asking myself, what more can go wrong for this poor guy? Like you said, not inspiring in the slightest. Can't say it enough- GOOD LUCK.

This is a cruel joke, and I apologize in advance, but your problems could be worse Roger. Your manufacturing errors could be being addressed by the Honda dealer in Port Au Prince, Haiti. Aren't you glad that that isn't the case?

Dave

[EXWRX]

Dang. . . Well hopefully they resolve everything to your satisfaction and you can from there out have a happy, fun, troublefree experience like the rest of us. :)

[claymore]

At least they gave you a loaner and so far no cost to you.

[cdninsw]

Yeah, Haiti, a little car trouble doesn't seem so bad after that. We have it in perspective, but we are pi$$ed anyway. My wife is calling corporate tomorrow. She has NO faith in the Fit & wants to get rid of it ASAP.

Final report from Service Dept. in the order things were discovered over the 16 days in the shop.
(Honda Tech #: 294-9151) and again, this car was 2 month old when the ting-ting noise started.

1) Vtec is dead, produces zero pressurre
- replaced Vtec solenoid

2) #3 and #4 exhaust valves "loose" and need adjustment
- #3 exhaust valve will not "hold" adjustment, comes loose again

3) broken spring on #3 exhaust valve
- replaced entire cylinder head including valve train

4) reassembled motor. During testing, tech heard chirp-chirp sound from passenger-side front area (we had heard this before but thought it was wiper blade in the wind)
- Discovered right side engine mount was installed backwards and was working loose, removed and reinstalled correctly.

The only cost to us was optional insurance on Enterprise rental car. Original estimate was 3 days work, stretched out to 16 days for a rental insurance total around $210.

I know not everyone (or anyone else?) will have these issues. But this car has been a huge disappointment. Like others have told me everytime they found another problem, I thought there can't possible be anything else... then there was... 3 more times.

But I have to say dealing with the service guy (Ed Perez) at Honda of Pasadena has been good. He took the time to answer all my questions, gave updates on a fairly regular basis and invited me to have a look at the faulty parts while the motor was in pieces.

Also, the car now has SIGNIFICANTLY more power than before. It's not winning races but I believe it to be "normal" power for the Fit (it's the only Fit we test drove so nothing to compare to, although the dealer should have noticed the difference.) But there is something rattling intermittently up under the dash on the highway now.

[manxman]

I had forgotten that you were in the San Gabriel Valley, and was picturing all of your reports of disaster after disaster coming from some little dealership in the snows of Omaha or Fargo or somewhere.

San Gabriel is my home town, and you were lucky to live in that area with such a huge assortment of problems to get fixed. I miss hot-rodding over Angeles Crest Hwy. to Lancaster, racing up from Azusa through San Gabriel Canyon, and 4-wheel-drive treks from San Bernardino up through Big Bear Lake, over the top, and down into the desert to Victorville, then back home again over Cajon Pass onto I-10 back to the S.G. Valley.

All in all, your dealership performed especially well in light of the Honda factory mistakes. Good luck in whatever decisions that you and your wife wind up having to make about the future of your car.

[manxman]

Wow! Do I feel like a shithead?? Yes indeed! I posted the quoted info. before the real situation in Haiti was broadcast on the TV news. The total destruction of a culture and a country is not the subject for jokes, and I sincerely apologize for my callous comment. I have made a donation to the Red Cross for aid to Haiti, and I encourage all of our members to contribute anything that they can to help the people of Haiti:eek: Until now, I have never seen an entire country destroyed by a natural disaster- war? Yes. Earthquake? No. Not until now.

I keep asking myself, what more can go wrong for this poor guy? Like you said, not inspiring in the slightest. Can't say it enough- GOOD LUCK.

This is a cruel joke, and I apologize in advance, but your problems could be worse Roger. Your manufacturing errors could be being addressed by the Honda dealer in Port Au Prince, Haiti. Aren't you glad that that isn't the case?

Dave

[Norg]

The L15A suffers from this too, they need valve adjustments, why hasn't this been a Honda Recall? I see a lot of GD3 owners have the same problem. :mad:

[claymore]

Valves wear naturally just from running. They need adjustment it's a standard maintenance item in any engine with solid lifters.

[Norg]

They also say give it 100k before adjusting anything, more like every 30k

[manxman]

Valves wear naturally just from running. They need adjustment it's a standard maintenance item in any engine with solid lifters.
I think that Honda expects the valve train to become noisy quite a while before the adjustment is mechanically necessary. But like most of the people who complain about having to adjust the valves, I too would do the adjustment early just to stop the noise of rattling valves. If I wanted to listen to a rattling engine, I would have bought a diesel.

[claymore]

100,000 miles is a pipe dream in this days of unleaded fuel. Lead in the fuel used to help cushion the valves from banging into the seat. That is why new vehicles come with hardened valve seats to keep the seats being beaten to death by not having the lead cushion. Now the valves themselves take the beating and the wear.

[manxman]

I remember the transition period from the early '70s thru the mid-'80s from leaded, to low-lead to unleaded gasoline. A minor specialty developed in hot rod engine machine shops where they machined the valve seats out of cylinder heads and replaced them with inserts made of a blend of nickel and cobalt, that would resist wear from the valves impacting on the seats without the cushioning deposits that used to occur from the leaded fuel.

[EXWRX]

When I worked auto parts, in the early to mid 90's, we'd get people buying heads for the older cars, for just that reason. Our reman heads came with hardened valve seats. I don't recall how many of those I sold, but it was a decent number. (nothing to compare with spark plugs or tires, but enough that I remembered it.)

[manxman]

Yep, a problem for one segment of the population becomes an opportunity for some others.

[Norg]

Valves wear naturally just from running. They need adjustment it's a standard maintenance item in any engine with solid lifters.

This is exactly word for word what the dealer told me :D damn it have to hope this weather gets a bit warmer to start wrenching.

[drm2295]

I guess this problem is more widespread than I thought.

http://automobiles.honda.com/news/press-releases-article.aspx?Article=5902-en